Talk:Camille Saint-Saëns

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Camille Saint-Saëns (9 October 1835 – 16 December 1921) was a French composer, organist, conductor and pianist of the Romantic era. He was a musical prodigy, making his concert debut at the age of ten, and was still performing nearly seven decades later, giving what he intended to be his farewell concert as a pianist in Paris in 1913. Saint-Saëns's retirement was soon in abeyance as a result of World War I, during which he gave many performances in France and elsewhere, raising money for war charities. In November 1921, he gave a recital before a large invited audience, where it was remarked that his playing was as vivid and precise as ever; but he died unexpectedly of a heart attack the following month while in Algiers. This photograph of Saint-Saëns by Pierre Petit was taken in 1900.

Photograph credit: Pierre Petit; restored by Adam Cuerden

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Exile in England

During the brief but bloody Paris Commune that followed, his superior at the Madeleine, the Abbé Deguerry, was murdered by rebels; Saint-Saëns was fortunate to escape to temporary exile in England where he arrived in May 1871. The Paris Commune assumed power on 18 March, and was bloodily suppressed on 28 May. Minor mistake? He likely arrived in March; the Romance, Op. 37 is dated to 25 March 1871 on the autograph, and was written "during his period of exile in London".

References

intforce (talk) 19:41, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

The British press archives are full of mentions of CS-S in London from May onwards, but nothing earlier. The monthly journal The Orchestra records on 19 May 1871 that CS-S is "one of the last refugees arrived from Paris", and The Musical Standard for 27 May also records that he "has just escaped from Paris". What is Jost's source for saying – if he does – that the March inscription was written in England? Am I missing a relevant mention on the site to which you link? Tim riley talk 20:21, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Later: I've tweaked the new article a little but have left the purported month and place of composition unaltered pending resolution of the supposed anomaly mentioned above. Tim riley talk 22:24, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Interesting. It appears that Saint-Saëns returned after 28 May, and that he fled on the last train from Paris to London. Given that he was a bourgeois member of the Old Guard, he feared for his safety in the Paris Commune. I think "on the last train from Paris to London" would imply March? Jost cites Bonnerot, C. Saint-Saëns. Sa vie et son œuvre, Paris, 2 1923, pp. 61f but sadly I don't have access to that source. Jost's preface can be found here. intforce (talk) 11:20, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

I have ordered Bonnerot's book at the British Library. In normal times I'd stroll down there after lunch, but with the current Covid limitations on access it will be 17 June, if you please!, before I can get in. I have ordered some other Saint-Saëns biographies as well, and will report back here a.s.a.p. thereafter. Tim riley talk 11:28, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Intforce: I renewed my reader's ticket at the BL today, and have booked a desk in one of the reading rooms for 23rd June. More on the above matter then, I hope. Tim riley talk 21:36, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Bonnerot

Bonnerot is not much help. On pp. 61–62 he says:

Saint-Saëns gathered the few hundred francs he could find in the house, said goodbye and left. At the Gare du Nord, a train was leaving; an employee motioned for him to go into a compartment, even without a ticket. The next day he landed in England and went to London, while in Paris the fédérés were occupying the gates and the stations and preventing the inhabitants from leaving. He had left in time.

Maddeningly, Bonnerot gives no date, but the trains stopped running to and from Paris on 3 April, to judge by press archives. If so, and if Saint-Saëns was indeed on the last train out of Paris, Jost is wrong that the Romance (dated March) was written in London. I am inclined to dodge the question of when CS-S left Paris, and redraw the relevant sentences to read:

During the brief but bloody Paris Commune that followed in March to May 1871 his superior at the Madeleine, the Abbé Deguerry, was murdered by rebels;[52] Saint-Saëns was fortunate to escape to temporary exile in England. With the help of George Grove and others he supported himself while there, giving recitals.[53] Returning to Paris in May 1871, he found that….

What think you, Intforce? – Tim riley talk 14:44, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the research! I agree that it would be possibly best to leave that question unanswered – it's merely a small detail after all. intforce (talk) 11:47, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I've lightly redrawn the section accordingly. Tim riley talk 17:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Composer/Pianist Charlotte Tardieu Performed with Saint-Saëns

This information was removed from the article: Composer/pianist Charlotte Tardieu performed works for two pianos with Saint-Saëns on several occasions (https://www.sophie-drinker-institut.de/tardieu-de-malleville-charlotte). T. E. Meeks (talk) 12:27, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Not of encyclopedic interest in an article about Saint-Saëns. No mention of her in the Grove article about Saint-Saëns or in the full-length biographies by Neitzel, Hervey or de Lassus, nor in Saint-Saëns's own memoirs. Possibly of interest in an article about Tardieu, to add a bit of reflected glory to an obscure musician, but quite beside the point in CS-S's article. That's my view, anyhow: what think other editors? Tim riley talk 18:47, 24 November 2022 (UTC)

Possible addition

While trying to improve the National Anthem of Uruguay page (having been bowled over by the reminiscences of Rossini), I realized that Saint-Saëns is sometimes incorrectly credited as the composer of the music. Why? It turns out that during a visit he made to the country in 1916 he was commissioned to write a celebratory hymn (I'm not sure if it was ever completed) which could potentially have become the national anthem, but in reality didn't. Whereas this information seems to me highly relevant for the page I was editing, I'm agnostic as to whether it might[1] be appropriate here. Hence this post. In Freundschaft, 86.182.104.144 (talk) 15:08, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

According to Grove, Saint-Saëns did indeed write a hymn for Uruguay – Partido colorado for the national holiday on 14 July. I don't for my own part think this minor fact cries out for inclusion in our article, but there would be no great harm in mentioning it if others think we should follow Grove's example and do so. Tim riley talk 16:03, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Ah, thank you Tim! How did I miss that? I had the Grove page open to consult, but somehow completely missed out on Partido colorado... which will now go onto the anthem page. 86.182.104.144 (talk) 16:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Good! I think that's right for both articles. (I found the one on the Uruguayan national anthem most interesting, by the way.) Tim riley talk 19:50, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the more I've reflected on the somewhat nebulous episode, the less significant it has felt to me for this page. (I'm delighted you find the anthem page interesting, btw; so have I, which is what brought me here - thanks again!) 86.182.104.203 (talk) 21:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

This article should have an infobox

It seems counter-intuative to not have an infobox on a page, particularly when all the information for it is readily available in the article. Not only do many other prominent classical composers have infoboxes (Anton Rubinstein, Richard Wagner, Richard Strauss, etc). Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov does not have one, but on the talk page someone has asked why it doesn't have one.

Stating that 'We don't generally do i-boxes for composers' is blatantly false, as demostrated by the above examples (and there are many many more). Nor is it clutter, most people do not read entire wikipedia articles, they instead use them to quickly obtain a piece of information. Even Encyclopedia Britannica has an infobox for him. It seems that a number of editors gatekeep 'lesser-known' composers articles in order to prevent infoboxes from being added (perhaps to encourage people to read their work, or out of some strange sense of imaginary internet authority). The infobox on Ludwig van Beethoven seems to have been quite controversial (to the editors only, I doubt anyone reading the article finds it disagreeble, since it can only make the information more accessible). Horsers (talk) 20:11, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

It is WP policy that whether or not an article should have an info-box is a matter to be agreed for each article. I recently revised the article on Schumann to bring it up to FA standard, and as it already had an info-box I felt it discourteous to earlier editors to remove it. But most composer FAs have not got (and don't need) an infobox. There are, I think from a quick count, four more with boxes and thirty without. Just as it seemed to me disrespectful to earlier editors to remove the box from Schumann's article (and Klemperer's), so it seems disrespectful to insist on a box when the various main editors have not thought one a good idea. Tim riley talk 08:56, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be under the misapprehension that wikipedia is about that wikipedia is about the editor. The purpose of an encylopædia is to make information easily accessible to the user, not the vanity of its editors (and there are about 2000 times as many views of pages as edits to them on the English Wikipedia [2]). So the editor's perspective isn't really important, the reader's is, and I would guess that readers generally do appreciate infoboxes, and the few who don't probably are not irked by its presence. An infobox takes not much more space on the page compared to the image (thanks to the contents it means there is just a lot of white space on the page when using the old view, and on mobile at best it requires a slightly longer swipe). Horsers (talk) 12:26, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

What an absolute charmer you are! "I would guess..." - quite so. You are in fact doing nothing but air your prejudices. You appear to oppose Wikipedia's policy on info-boxes, which I have explained above. While you'r reading that, you might also like to read the one on WP:AGF. Tim riley talk 15:24, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Just as I am making a guess (backed by anecdotal evidence), so are you by disagreeing with me. I am interested, what do you mean prejudices? I am merely stating my view that infoboxes make an article better. On the other hand, you simplely refer to WP policy (without source), and now seemingly try to take the 'moral high ground'. And I not assuming bad faith, I am assuming ignorance of the readers (Hanlon's razor in a way). Of course, as you have made clear, I have no ability to change anything, and with your unwavering commitment to not have an infobox, I can at least compliment you on your conviction.

But then, Stanley Kubrick now has an infobox (with the linked discussion summing up my view quite nicely), and of course people disproportionately read the infobox. Horsers (talk) 17:08, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Glad you've simmered down on the abuse. Please try to realise that the five or six main authors of FAs on i-boxless composers make our judgements on our best assessments of what is helpful to our readers. I use i-boxes all the time for articles on clergy, politicians and sportsmen where there are career stats that casual (and not so casual) visitors can pick up on, but composers just don't have such i-box-friendly statistics. Tim riley talk 17:40, 12 October 2024 (UTC)